In Alias/Implication Tracking, saw this one pop up:

UNBERIEVABRE! said:
Implicating: frottage --> gay
Reason: Two male Characters rubbing penises is gay
Status: pending

I disagree with the implication as frottage doesn't necessarily mean gay.

In a group involving females it could be considered bisexual. And if two dickgirls/herms are involved in frottage, that isn't gay by wiki.

Samples:
post #403912 post #345043 post #234281 post #433223

Thought the same. I'm against the implication.

Definitely a bad implication.

Nyteshade said:
In Alias/Implication Tracking, saw this one pop up:

I disagree with the implication as frottage doesn't necessarily mean gay.

In a group involving females it could be considered bisexual. And if two dickgirls/herms are involved in frottage, that isn't gay by wiki.

Frottage is defined on the site as the male on male specifically.

"Images or animations depicting, surprisingly, frottage.

Frottage (active verb "frotting") is a sexual act, common in gay imagery, in which two male characters press and rub their erect penises together.

Compare Tribadism."

Originally frottage meant specifically male-male interaction but then expanded to be the generic word for that sort of thing, while we have it set just as the original male-specific. Your point about herms still stand, though, so support, unless we come up with a herm-specific term.

123easy said:
Frottage is defined on the site as the male on male specifically.

"Images or animations depicting, surprisingly, frottage.

Frottage (active verb "frotting") is a sexual act, common in gay imagery, in which two male characters press and rub their erect penises together.

Compare Tribadism."

Originally frottage meant specifically male-male interaction but then expanded to be the generic word for that sort of thing, while we have it set just as the original male-specific. Your point about herms still stand, though, so support, unless we come up with a herm-specific term.

Well, it's defined as penis on penis at least, not male on male per say.

123easy said:
Frottage is defined on the site as the male on male specifically.

...

Originally frottage meant specifically male-male interaction but then expanded to be the generic word for that sort of thing, while we have it set just as the original male-specific. Your point about herms still stand, though, so support, unless we come up with a herm-specific term.

Even if it were specifically male interacting with male, if there is a female as a third in the image it could still be bisexual instead of gay.

Halite said:
Well, it's defined as penis on penis at least, not male on male per say.

This. As long as males are not the only proud owners of penises, then the two shouldn't be equated for a sex act that only requires a penis rubbed against another penis. Not when other genders besides male could be owning/operating either penis. I agree with all the points Nyteshade brought up. It wouldn't make a good implication for all those reasons.

Though 123easy makes a good point about what the wiki says. It looks like the wiki could need editing to fit the fact we have more than just two genders [male/female] on this site?

furrypickle said:
This. As long as males are not the only proud owners of penises, then the two shouldn't be equated for a sex act that only requires a penis rubbed against another penis. Not when other genders besides male could be owning/operating either penis. I agree with all the points Nyteshade brought up. It wouldn't make a good implication for all those reasons.

Though 123easy makes a good point about what the wiki says. It looks like the wiki could need editing to fit the fact we have more than just two genders [male/female] on this site?

I'd honestly prefer if we created a term for herm-specific frottage instead, as I noted before, just as we separate homosexuality into 'gay' and 'lesbian'. It keeps it cleanly organized. Ah, the issues of having non-binary genders being defined in a binary language.

123easy said:
I'd honestly prefer if we created a term for herm-specific frottage instead, as I noted before, just as we separate homosexuality into 'gay' and 'lesbian'. It keeps it cleanly organized. Ah, the issues of having non-binary genders being defined in a binary language.

So what, a frottage term that is specific to dickgirl on male, herm on male, dickgirl on dickgirl, herm on herm, as well as male on male?

This is one of those cases I don't think we need more categories of the same term. If someone doesn't want herm/dickgirl frottage, they can search frottage -herm -dickgirl.

Nyteshade said:
So what, a frottage term that is specific to dickgirl on male, herm on male, dickgirl on dickgirl, herm on herm, as well as male on male?

This is one of those cases I don't think we need more categories of the same term. If someone doesn't want herm/dickgirl frottage, they can search frottage -herm -dickgirl.

A shorter form would be frottage -intersex.

AbsebaroKoon said:

Click to expand if you care to read my opinion

Frottage can go with any gender, it's a sexual act. Dicks don't have to rub each other to be counted as frottage, from what I know means that two or more individuals rub one another to get sexual gratification. Hotdogging and dry humping with or without clothing counts as forms of frottage but doesn't have to involve two males.

Examples of frottage includes:
-two men rubbing dicks together until one or both cum
-a boy rubbing his dick on a girl's stomach until he cums
-an intersex individual rubbing their dick on a clothed individual to cum
-a girl grinding her pussy on a man's leg until she orgasms
-a man rubbing his dick secretly with people in a crowded subway until he jizzes his pants
-a sex crazed individual rubs his dick across a girl's ass until he cums

I am a sicko, so I should stop giving more examples now before I get creative

Frottage isn't a gay term, stop reading that urban dictionary stuff.

"Frot (slang for frottage; ult. from the French verb frotter, "to rub") is a non-penetrative form of male-male sexual activity that usually involves direct penis-to-penis contact."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frot

It's just penis-to-penis contact. When you include things like herms and dickgirls, it isn't gay. The only example you gave that was correct was the first one.

SirAntagonist said:
"Frot (slang for frottage; ult. from the French verb frotter, "to rub") is a non-penetrative form of male-male sexual activity that usually involves direct penis-to-penis contact."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frot

You defined "frot" as in the "male on male crossing swords" type, but on the same website you used,
"Frottage may refer to:

Frottage, sexual rubbing; non-penetrative sex
Frot, male-on-male nonpenetrative sex
Frottage (art), technique
Fudgie Frottage, drag king"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage

What you defined is a verb called "frot", when clearly "frottage" is a noun, which is "sexual rubbing". Not sure about the other two definitions, but I stand clear on my opinion. After all, we're talking about frottage, not frot.
Edit: Wikipedia is also as untrustworthy as the urban dictionary

AbsebaroKoon said:
You defined "frot" as in the "male on male crossing swords" type, but on the same website you used,
"Frottage may refer to:

Frottage, sexual rubbing; non-penetrative sex
Frot, male-on-male nonpenetrative sex
Frottage (art), technique
Fudgie Frottage, drag king"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage

What you defined is a verb called "frot", when clearly "frottage" is a noun, which is "sexual rubbing". Not sure about the other two definitions, but I stand clear on my opinion. After all, we're talking about frottage, not frot.

So should we use the tag Frottage to refer to the art technique?

Defining it as a general term for rubbing does nothing to aid in searches. It's most common use is to refer to two people rubbing penises, so that's the way it's used. The purpose of tags is to aid people in their searches by narrowing down subject matter. That's why the most common and relevant meaning of a word is used. If people want other variations of sexual rubbing, they can search hot_dogging or even just rubbing.

Frot is aliased to Frottage, because frot is an abbreviation of frottage. Creating separate tags for the two would be useless and confusing.

SirAntagonist said:
So should we use the tag Frottage to refer to the art technique?

Defining it as a general term for rubbing does nothing to aid in searches. It's most common use is to refer to two people rubbing penises, so that's the way it's used. The purpose of tags is to aid people in their searches by narrowing down subject matter. That's why the most common and relevant meaning of a word is used. If people want other variations of sexual rubbing, they can search hot_dogging or even just rubbing.

Frot is aliased to Frottage, because frot is an abbreviation of frottage. Creating separate tags for the two would be useless and confusing.

We create the frottage_(art) tag for what I care, now, the implication of frot and frottage is okay, as long as frot is aliased to frottage instead of the other way around. What my opinion is for against the idea of implicating frottage with gay. I don't want to bring up more implications. I'm trying not to stray from the thread y'know...

AbsebaroKoon said:
I'm trying not to stray from the thread y'know...

But you are.

OP:
frottage == dicks rubbing dicks == gay

Thread:
frottage == dicks rubbing dicks != gay

You:
frottage != dicks rubbing dicks == gay

The implication between frottage and gay is what I'm against. I made an opinion saying that frottage doesn't mean gay. That's what I want to say. I'm agreeing with what Nyteshade is saying. I guess my rant strayed from the topic then, but I said that frottage isn't a gay word, can be used as one, but isn't a gay term.

So like this is when they make the penises kiss?
That's kinda gay.
But then again, if the balls aren't touching, I'm not sure how to rule that.

Moon_Moon said:
So like this is when they make the penises kiss?
That's kinda gay.

What if they're dickgirls?

AbsebaroKoon said:
What if they're dickgirls?

And so we get back to the point that we need a tag specific for herms/nonstandard frottage.

123easy said:
And so we get back to the point that we need a tag specific for herms/nonstandard frottage.

No, we don't.
2 penises =/= gay.
Otherwise we'd tag 2 herms having sex as gay, and we don't, because it isn't.
Frottage isn't gay by definition, not on this website.
It's the act of a penis being rubbed against a second penis.

123easy said:
And so we get back to the point that we need a tag specific for herms/nonstandard frottage.

We don't have gender-specific versions of other sex acts either, why would we need them for frottage?

Halite said:
No, we don't.
2 penises =/= gay.
Otherwise we'd tag 2 herms having sex as gay, and we don't, because it isn't.
Frottage isn't gay by definition, not on this website.
It's the act of a penis being rubbed against a second penis.

I didn't say that two penises = gay, given herms and dickgirls in the community. Note my agreement with that point in my very first post. However, Frottage on this site is being used as a tag in that way specifically, following the original meaning of it (as again I stated) rather than the secondary meaning that it has come to have denoting all forms of genital rubbing. We can see this further with the tag Tribadism being specifically a lesbian-noted activity, as it is in real life rather than just the furry community.

Genjar said:
We don't have gender-specific versions of other sex acts either, why would we need them for frottage?

Tribadism as noted above; We also assume male for images of men with cum in their ass (and thus gay) rather than herms or dickgirls (due in part, no doubt, to the latter being by far the minority and the former the standard of having a dick) and for disembodied penises. Penis_in_penis specifies homosexual-only male/male interaction. Pregnancy denotes females only; there is the tag male_pregnancy for male-specifics; neither handles cuntboys or herms or dickgirls (doesn't help that they're typically portrayed as sterile or at most impregnating a female, in the case of the latter two).

123easy said:
I didn't say that two penises = gay, given herms and dickgirls in the community. Note my agreement with that point in my very first post. However, Frottage on this site is being used as a tag in that way specifically, following the original meaning of it (as again I stated) rather than the secondary meaning that it has come to have denoting all forms of genital rubbing. We can see this further with the tag Tribadism being specifically a lesbian-noted activity, as it is in real life rather than just the furry community.

Tribadism as noted above; We also assume male for images of men with cum in their ass (and thus gay) rather than herms or dickgirls (due in part, no doubt, to the latter being by far the minority and the former the standard of having a dick) and for disembodied penises. Penis_in_penis specifies homosexual-only male/male interaction. Pregnancy denotes females only; there is the tag male_pregnancy for male-specifics; neither handles cuntboys or herms or dickgirls (doesn't help that they're typically portrayed as sterile or at most impregnating a female, in the case of the latter two).

Pregnancy doesn't imply female, herms and dickgirls can also be pregnant, and tagged as such.

123easy said:
We can see this further with the tag Tribadism being specifically a lesbian-noted activity, as it is in real life rather than just the furry community.

Tribadism is not specifically lesbian. It's pussy on pussy rubbing, even if one or both are herms. That case is just nowhere near as common as frottage involving herms/dickgirls.

Examples of non-lesbian tribadism:
post #405784 post #462977 post #377576

Nyteshade said:
Tribadism is not specifically lesbian. It's pussy on pussy rubbing, even if one or both are herms. That case is just nowhere near as common as frottage involving herms/dickgirls.

Examples of non-lesbian tribadism:
post #405784 post #462977 post #377576

Check the definitions (of the words as well as the tags) as well; a tribade (that is, one that participates in tribadism) is defined as a lesbian, and all references to it define it as a specifically lesbian practice. Further, what makes these images of herms 'correct' any more than many other images that are tagged with a specific tag incorrectly? That's just a personal bias.

123easy said:
Further, what makes these images of herms 'correct' any more than many other images that are tagged with a specific tag incorrectly?

Maybe the fact that we don't have tags for herm-specific or cuntboy-specific tribadism? You think we should not tag a specific sex act just because of the gender of the participants? No.

123easy said:
Check the definitions (of the words as well as the tags) as well; a tribade (that is, one that participates in tribadism) is defined as a lesbian, and all references to it define it as a specifically lesbian practice.

That's because most places only take males and females into account when they're determining orientation.

The wiki article that you're mentioning? The one who wrote it refers to fellatio as "the male equivalent of cunnilingus."

DrHorse said:
Maybe the fact that we don't have tags for herm-specific or cuntboy-specific tribadism? You think we should not tag a specific sex act just because of the gender of the participants? No.
That's because most places only take males and females into account when they're determining orientation.

The wiki article that you're mentioning? The one who wrote it refers to fellatio as "the male equivalent of cunnilingus."

...No, I'm saying we should have tags specific for them. -.- That's what I've been fucking saying from the start. Learn to read, please.

123easy said:
Frottage is defined on the site as the male on male specifically.

"Images or animations depicting, surprisingly, frottage.

Frottage (active verb "frotting") is a sexual act, common in gay imagery, in which two male characters press and rub their erect penises together.

Compare Tribadism."....
----
...Check the definitions (of the words as well as the tags) as well; a tribade (that is, one that participates in tribadism) is defined as a lesbian, and all references to it define it as a specifically lesbian practice.

Those definitions are based on the logic that there are only two gender options: male or female. They do not work when applied straight-across to a website like ours where we have five gender options: male, female, herm, dickgirl and cuntboy. So this means each definition has to be analyzed and adapted to fit a five-gendered situation.

You can find equally narrow definitions for who is the owner of a pussy/vagina as being "only females", but that doesn't mean we need (or should) invent a new word to tag herm pussies separately from female pussies. Not when neither the shape, nor the uses, of a pussy are changed by being on a herm vs being on a female. Because when the genital or act is unchanged, then the tag should also remain the same.

When it comes to tribadism vs frottage, the defining pieces of info are: which genitals are rubbed against which genitals. The act of rubbing penises together does not change if either person also happens to own a vagina, because that vagina is not involved with the act. Whether or not they have one is about as relevant as their species. In a binary world, frottage is male-only because only men contain the necessary equipment for it. But the same is not true in a five-gendered system where there are two other genders besides male which also have the necessary equipment to rub penises together.

Additional tag(s) for intersexed tribadism and frottage are also completely unnecessary when people can just search "frottage -intersex" or "tribadism -intersex" and get only gay-only frottage or gay-only tribadism if that's what they're looking for. Adding a tag for it just isn't necessary.

123easy said:
...No, I'm saying we should have tags specific for them. -.- That's what I've been fucking saying from the start. Learn to read, please.

Turn down the tone please

123easy said:
...No, I'm saying we should have tags specific for them. -.- That's what I've been fucking saying from the start. Learn to read, please.

That's what you're saying, but what is everyone else saying? In the past 7 years that frottage has been a tag not once have they said "Hot damn, I sure wish I could tag these two herms rubbing their dicks together. Frottage is just for males, so I guess I'll just have to make a new tag."

DrHorse said:
In the past 7 years that frottage has been a tag not once have they said "Hot damn, I sure wish I could tag these two herms rubbing their dicks together. Frottage is just for males, so I guess I'll just have to make a new tag."

"No one has thought to do it before," isn't really a supportable argument. :P

123easy said:
...No, I'm saying we should have tags specific for them.

My understanding of the e621 tagging system is that it's meant to help make searching as straightforward as possible. frottage and tribadism are fairly well known and many interpret them as being based on sex organ rather than sex of the participant.

Creating a new tag that people searching may not even know exists because it's something made up specifically for e621 would likely just make the searches more complicated.

Additionally, the subsets of frottage/tribadism images that are herm/dickgirl/cuntboy are such a small portion (relatively speaking) of the overall image sets that I don't think it would be worth having a completely new tag for each combination.

If a new sub-fetish became popular that specifically focused on intersex dick-rubbing I'd be willing to reassess that opinion. (Though if something that specific became a thing it'd probably get it's own name anyway.)

Nyteshade said:
"No one has thought to do it before, (so we shouldn't)" isn't really a supportable argument. :P

No, it isn't. But that wasn't my argument.

Nyteshade said:
frottage and tribadism are fairly well known and many interpret them as being based on sex organ rather than sex of the participant.

This is the point of contention that I was addressing. The 5 users who happened to be on the forum today simply stating "it is so" isn't a compelling argument. As 123easy points out, that is just their personal bias.

Nyteshade said:
"No one has thought to do it before," isn't really a supportable argument. :P

My understanding of the e621 tagging system is that it's meant to help make searching as straightforward as possible. frottage and tribadism are fairly well known and many interpret them as being based on sex organ rather than sex of the participant.

Creating a new tag that people searching may not even know exists because it's something made up specifically for e621 would likely just make the searches more complicated.

Additionally, the subsets of frottage/tribadism images that are herm/dickgirl/cuntboy are such a small portion (relatively speaking) of the overall image sets that I don't think it would be worth having a completely new tag for each combination.

If a new sub-fetish became popular that specifically focused on intersex dick-rubbing I'd be willing to reassess that opinion. (Though if something that specific became a thing it'd probably get it's own name anyway.)

Fair enough. My issue stems from the improper usage of the words as they are defined as male/male and female/female specifically, and using them with these widened definitions is simply incorrect and just leads to yet further degredation of the English language. You make a good enough point on the matter, though.

Thank you for actually bothering to address my points, rather than just throw more into the mix, by the way.